Lose-Lose or Win-Win? You decide.

Speaker 1: 0:00

So earlier today, we're at my mother-in-law's in her rented apartment. And I took a nap while I was taking a nap. My daughter, Lila drew this amazing drawing of me and she put it on . She glued it with scotch tape all over the wall, taped it, taped,

Speaker 2: 0:13

It, taped it. Okay . Like scotch tape , everywhere, like tight, tight on the wall, SCO

Speaker 1: 0:18

Scotch tape . I thought it was beautiful. I took a picture of it. Ly comes home. She's like, whoa .

Speaker 2: 0:22

Yeah , because every parent knows that when you try to take scotch tape off of a wall, you can chip the paint and take the paint off of the wall with the scotch tape.

Speaker 1: 0:31

So in that little, at that moment, she comes in guns , Blas , I'm a turtle, I'm a turtle . Oh .

Speaker 2: 0:37

I'm like, what did you do? Watch your do job . I'm like , I didn't start. What did you do? I just started like, does my mom know that this is a thing? This is something that as sale . And I have talked about because in our, in our home, the kids in the sale have taped things on the wall and I have not been happy about it. So

Speaker 1: 0:56

Anyway, so she comes and she says it and I'm like , uh , and

Speaker 2: 0:59

It says like, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry

Speaker 1: 1:01

About it . I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:03

I didn't do it. That's what you were saying. I didn't do it .

Speaker 1: 1:06

I didn't do it LA I , I was melting. But the point of the story is in this is that I thought I was gonna lose, lose. Okay. If I admit, I feel , uh , like a parent ,

Speaker 2: 1:15

Right? If you own your, then you're like, and

Speaker 1: 1:17

If I go for that and if I try to silence her , that's not gonna work. I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Right . If you go into the crucible, then it's gonna be a big fight in front of everybody.

Speaker 1: 1:25

And my , and my mother-in-law was there and the kids were there anyways. I felt

Speaker 2: 1:28

You felt cornered in a lose .

Speaker 1: 1:30

I was in lose . And today I was like,

Speaker 2: 1:31

No.

Speaker 1: 1:32

And today, and today we're gonna talk about lose , lose . And we'll tell you what happened in the end, at the end of the talk.

Speaker 2: 1:38

And we'll tell you why lose. Lose is actually a win-win

Speaker 1: 1:40

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 1:47

You are listening to the potential state podcast With your host, Dr . ASEL Romanelli.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Hi, my name is Dr . ASEL Romanelli

Speaker 2: 1:58

I'm Gallet Romanelli, and

Speaker 1: 2:00

This is the potential state . And today we're gonna talk about lose, lose,

Speaker 2: 2:04

Or win win

Speaker 1: 2:05

You choose. Mm . So there are a lot of different concepts terms of , of this idea of lose , lose SAR , calls it , gridlock, the government call it 70%. That's unsolvable. I oftentimes call it the lose, lose reality where partners are in this dance, where one of them feels like they're damned if they do. And they're damned if they

Speaker 2: 2:23

Don't or like you're in a T junction of like your relationship. And if you go that way, then all you can see is like the , uh , the loss. And if you go that way, then all you can see is like , uh , the loss. And you're like , uh , which way is better? Maybe none.

Speaker 1: 2:35

So I just had this experience the other day with the couple where the , the wife was always critical and the husband said I'm gonna lose, lose . Like, if I do confront her about that, she experiences me even more critical. And if I don't say anything, she keeps criticizing me. So what does he do? He avoids it lose, lose by just working late hours. He

Speaker 2: 2:52

Actually avoids it . Oh , by just like, yeah . Removing him from the interaction completely. Exactly .

Speaker 1: 2:58

So I've been noticing there , there are four ways that people kind of avoid these , these inevitable losers , cuz every relationship ha it's a T junction. Right? So there's

Speaker 2: 3:05

Always gonna be,

Speaker 1: 3:06

There's always gonna be a crucible. Uh , you're gonna have , make

Speaker 2: 3:08

Some choice exactly . Some direction.

Speaker 1: 3:11

So the number one is, people are vague. They don't give an answer. They're like , uh ,

Speaker 2: 3:17

Right. Instead of being like explicit.

Speaker 1: 3:19

Yeah. And they choose to fight about cocky, pee beer , just avoided. The other one is the attack, the attack, which is like, we try to belittle our partner. So I don't have to deal with what you're saying to me. Mm . Okay. Which is kind of what I tried to do in the beginning. Oh , when you were , when you were slamming me. Oh , interesting. I was like , you're yelling now. You're yelling now trying to shift the lose, lose from it's about me too . It's about you. And then oftentimes that works and then we , but then we fight this cocky PPI fight. Mm . Number three is just Stonewall. We avoid, I don't even talk about the things that we need to talk about, whether it's religion or we're moving or our relationship to certain things, we just kind of, don't talk about agree to disagree and turn into like these parallel lives .

Speaker 2: 3:56

It's like, it's an issue that that's like, it's like Harry Potter, like the name that shall not be named kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 4:03

Right ? Yeah . Or oftentimes I'll see this, a couples with sex. Like, I'll ask, what about the sex? We both , they'll both be like,

Speaker 2: 4:08

Oh , well we don't have

Speaker 1: 4:08

Sex. Yeah. And they just don't wanna talk about it. They think that if you don't talk about the lose loses or that T junction, it's just

Speaker 2: 4:13

Go , that

Speaker 1: 4:14

Doesn't exist. Exactly. Right. But Actually gross . And , and , but what actually happens is that taboo becomes bigger and bigger. Yes . Becomes bigger. And the last way people avoid it is by one of them developing a psychosomatic. Ooh . Getting depressed or sad and so vulnerable that I can't even talk to you about it. Oh , it's a very sophisticated way of avoiding the T junction, but just become I'm so sick. I'm so tired. I can't even talk about this .

Speaker 2: 4:35

Gotcha .

Speaker 1: 4:35

Gotcha. Okay . But that will work because it's gonna go there. You cannot avoid these T junctions. It's inevitable. Whatever.

Speaker 2: 4:43

Not just that. I wanna say that. So, so often the things that we avoid require just as much energy, if not more, right? Yes . Like, like when you see someone across the street and you don't wanna say hello to them, you're spending more energy, trying to avoid them and avoid eye contact than you than you would . If you were just like, hi and keep walking.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Right. I spent a year, I spent a year ignoring my ex-girlfriend. We were in the same dance trou a year. That's so much , energy's hundreds of hours I wasted . Yeah . But

Speaker 2: 5:12

It's like really hard not to make eye contacts at that point. So think

Speaker 1: 5:17

About it. So , so, and oftentimes I'll ask, I'll just do this in middle , a couple therapy sessions. So I'll help flesh out the lose , lose that . One of the partners feeling and their mind to lose, lose . I'm damned if I do. And I say, Sue, how do you resolve that? Or in other words, how do you avoid that?

Speaker 2: 5:29

So what do they say? One of the four

Speaker 1: 5:32

You usually say, I work related one of the four. Right? Right. I get angry. I attack. I avoid. Or I'm just like, Ugh . Okay. Yeah . So how do you, how do you approach this differently?

Speaker 2: 5:40

Well, let's tell them what happened.

Speaker 1: 5:42

Yes. Let's tell 'em what happened. So she starts yelling. I try, I tried ,

Speaker 2: 5:46

I didn't start yelling. I was like, what is this? What , how has this happened? We've talked about this many times. And the sales answers were just like super vague. They were super vague.

Speaker 1: 5:57

I was doing combination like vague , vague for attack. It was like a vague attack

Speaker 2: 6:00

Combination. It was vague and dismissive. It was like vague. And like, and like now's not the time. And was like, no, we're already like in the thick of it. Like, let's just like , as far as I'm concerned. And this is like our dance of like, I'm in the crucible, just meet me here. Let's just go at it. Let's just like, and

Speaker 1: 6:17

On the turtle , I'm like, no , no ,

Speaker 2: 6:19

No , let's do it and get over with it. So we can like move on once and for all. And it says like , uh , trying to like find so many reasons why not.

Speaker 1: 6:28

And in the end , what happened

Speaker 2: 6:32

Then ? What happened was you just, you went , you met me there, you shouted back a little bit. You owned your. I owned my. And then we were able to like resolve it. We, we just, we, we went through it because emotions and everything is cyclical. Right. You just, you have to work your way through it. And through the like frustration and anger and, and misunderstanding, we were able to then see each other and see

Speaker 1: 7:08

And grow.

Speaker 2: 7:10

Yeah. But see like where ed was lacking, where I was lacking, where I was, right. Where he was. Right. Where, you know, we were able to see much more because we stayed there and we, we, we went there.

Speaker 1: 7:24

So

Speaker 2: 7:25

Here, I wanna say from your perspective,

Speaker 1: 7:27

So from, so I'm gonna give that in a second. I first wanna say , um, what, what are possible , um , outcomes of staying in the crucible and lose , lose if that's okay. Or is that not connected to what you asked? I , I , so first I say , what happened for me? I was , I was like, ah , and then I said, you know, let's just be there. And I took a head on and I felt like I had to go into the shame and the humiliation of actually she called me out on something that I knew I wasn't okay with. I owned my. Yeah, I did. And then as we were both there at a certain point, I could say also my feeling that this was humiliating for me. And she was yelling and everyone could hear, and there was this kind of softening after that, we kind of finished it. And it felt like there's this release of energy. Yeah . And I think for a lot of people, they feel like if I go into the lose lose , there's just more lose. And here's what I wanna say. There's a few different things that can happen. So one thing can happen like us, you come in on the other side, deeper with a clear understanding, with the bigger learning. There's also the risk for some couples. And I do wanna put that on the table by going into the lose, lose that that relationship might end. If you finally talk about these things, there is a chance and you have , you have to

Speaker 2: 8:30

Take a risk. There might to be

Speaker 1: 8:32

Able to bring up sex,

Speaker 2: 8:33

But you know what the win is, you're living your truth. Boom. That's the win.

Speaker 1: 8:38

So there's really, so even if the relationship would end, that's still a better outcome from a win than being in a relationship where you can't talk about this or when you avoid

Speaker 2: 8:45

You or not, you exactly How, I mean, living a life where you're like , uh , it's , I'm not fully me.

Speaker 1: 8:52

And even if you don't solve it, okay. And this is what Godin's talk about 70%. Even if we will never resolve this, the fact that we can stay in touch with this and move and be , yeah, let's talk about it. Cause it's not a lose . It's just , it's a difference. We're different people. Yeah. And we're gonna have it's sloppy and there are gonna be moments we

Speaker 2: 9:07

Disagree . And also I feel like because people are, are changing right. And evolving. Like we are, even though everybody's like, oh, change is so hard. We do change. You can not change. Right ? Like life just experience makes us change. So I feel like by, by having it be something that you're willing to talk about, then you're leaving yourself open for change. You're leaving yourself open to have it land differently at a different time.

Speaker 1: 9:33

Right. Cause if I land, you might , you might be losing those yesterday, today , like

Speaker 2: 9:36

Now, but like maybe in three months from now, you know, right . We may be in a completely different place. And when the topic comes up, then I'll be like, I never thought about it like that. And since I've had that experience, now I'm more open to it . I

Speaker 1: 9:47

Would have to say that. Even that example, when I told you, after I own my and let it land. When I came back to you and said, you're yelling and you're humiliating me, then you

Speaker 2: 9:55

That's really hard for me to hear.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yeah. And then, and then you, your . And cause I

Speaker 2: 10:00

Was like, Ooh , I never, like, if you wouldn't have stayed there and you wouldn't have given me that gift of like, this is really hard for me to meet you here while I know that like your mom is in the other room, hearing us shout, then I could soften . And I could really appreciate the effort that it took for you to stay and meet me there. And that was it. I was like, I did not yell. I was done. I was soft. Right. I was soft. I was even playing and I was playful and touching.

Speaker 1: 10:26

That's true relative. So how do you do this? How do you do this ? How do you create this magic ? First of all, share this talk separately, make a list and , and think about which topics do you feel that you're gonna lose, lose that you're actually avoiding your partner. Yeah. And both of you can do the same list at the same time. And then just what I wanna suggest is share with your partner, playfully those moments where you feel like you're , you're damned if you're doing you're damned if you don't

Speaker 2: 10:47

Right. But maybe start with something like small, no expectation

Speaker 1: 10:51

For me to fix . The first thing is just to own it , just to say, you know, when it comes to this topic, I'm avoiding it. Yeah . I feel like I'm lose, lose . Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:56

This topic scares me and I

Speaker 1: 10:57

Don't wanna talk . Yeah . And I feel like if I do this you'll hurt. You'll be annoyed. If I do this, you'll judge me. Yeah . And just share

Speaker 2: 11:02

That. And then you as the partner, like don't, don't, you don't need to say anything. You don't need to fix it or just acknowledge it. Just be like, Hmm . Wow. Interesting. Thank you for sharing that with me. I had no idea.

Speaker 1: 11:12

Exactly. And you wanna breathe and just stay with those . Listen, realize, whoa , my partner feels in lose , lose . And that was gonna make sense for a lot of things that you've noticed they're avoiding.

Speaker 2: 11:20

Oh yeah. Good

Speaker 1: 11:20

Point. Cause then you'll be like, oh, that's the reason we ever talk about sex or about your mom or about religion or about school or about whatever it's

Speaker 2: 11:27

But they , or parenting or just kind of hard.

Speaker 1: 11:30

And, and then once these topics do come, I mean, if you choose to do this proactively, you can, but often it's just gonna come up naturally broadcast life , stay playful. Like I don't wanna , how do you wanna own your? You wanna take responsibility, but you only want also wanna let it land. And if your partner's saying things, take a breath and you can always just broadcast live and say, oh my God, I feel like I'm gonna lose, lose . I don't know what to do. I wanna avoid . I wanna add , like that really hurts. Uh , but if you could stay in there and verbalize it , name entertainment over time that lose , lose might morph into just a crucible, just a hot interaction that T junction will become can still be a T junction, but it'll be a softer, a softer T junction and you won't be coming it a hundred miles .

Speaker 2: 12:08

Yeah. And it won't look like loss . Yeah. On each side, you know? Yeah . Like you'll start to be able to see the gains and the wins

Speaker 1: 12:15

Because the end of the day, the point is not the T junction. It's the relationship.

Speaker 2: 12:19

Well, I think yes. And also the point is , is that it's the glasses that we wear. Yes . Right? Like we can see it as lose, lose , but wherever there's a lose, there's a win.

Speaker 1: 12:31

Say more about that.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Well, it's just the Goggle, it's the glasses that we wear. We can see it. Right. It's that glass half full or half empty. Yeah. So

Speaker 1: 12:40

Choose , refer back to the core beliefs. Yeah. So , okay . Anyways, is it a lose, lose , or is it a win-win? It's a,

Speaker 2: 12:48

Win-win

Speaker 1: 12:49

It all leads to growth. This was Gil Romanelli. This

Speaker 2: 12:52

Is Dr . USAL

Speaker 1: 12:53

Romanelli. We are the potential state . We'll see you next time. Bye.

Speaker 3: 12:58

You've been listening to the potential state podcast For more information, visit us@potentialstate.com. And thank you for listening.