How to stay hungry after a decade together?

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hi, and welcome to potential state. My name is Dr. AEL Romanelli . And today I'm in a conversation with Dr. Miha Belzer . Who's a couple and family therapist in Jerusalem, and he's teaching a course on the family life cycle . And we're having an honest conversation about the last years of couples. The last years are kind of five to seven years after the marriage. You have the two kids mortgage, you're both in your professional track and there's kind of this kind of relaxing or this kind of lull in the, in the , in the dynamic of the marriage. Um, so this conversation is geared a couple therapists, but it's actually really relevant for many couples. Um , by the way, I'm in that stage of my life and of my marriage. And in this conversation, we describe a little bit of what's happening, the uncomfortable truths of that kind of cohort of that age, kind of, of those that decade, actually the dangers, the, the challenges. And there's plenty of tips where I'm gonna share how I work with these couples. What can they do to stay hungry, stay foolish, stay playful, stay within the crucible so they can grow and, and keep evolving even in those lost years. So I hope you find this meaningful. I found it really meaningful and enjoy.

Speaker 2: 1:13

You are listening to the potential state podcast With Dr . Asai Romanelli .

Speaker 3: 1:23

So our subject is a family life cycle. We, we thought, what can we speak about? That would be interesting. And we chose like , um, the years of marriage that we called them the , what do call the hidden years,

Speaker 1: 1:40

The lost years , the silent years, the the years were just kind of , you know, after you ha you have the honeymoon period, and then you have the exciting having kids . And then that , that , you know, the , the seven year dip, you've got the two kids, you got the mortgage, you got the dog, both of you're kind of based in your professions. And you basically are starting the long marathon where your parents are aging on one side, and your kids are growing up in the mid , in the other side. And you're kind of in the middle hitting midlife crisis. We're talking about mid thirties, early forties. Um, and maybe I'll just say, I'm worried about my approach , um, how you've mentioned in the beginning. And I've, I think I would say today have to define my approach, which is obviously, you know, it's very, I integrative, but I'd say I'm a , I'm a , I'm a symbolic experiential therapist, which goes back to Satir and Whitaker, which I'm sure you guys have learned where everything that happens in the clinic is also real, but also symbolic. So within that experiential stream , um, it , like you said, bone therapy and especially SAR David Sard , who kind of developed the crucible paradigm, and then time Megan , who really brought it to Israel. And I integrated with , with my own backgrounds, my background in improv, and also a lot of teary Reel's work , um , relational therapy. So that's kind of where I'm coming from when , as we're talking this topic. Um, and I'll just say , uh, I find that if I have to kind of think about my clinic. So I , I work privately. I work one day in Jeru, some the rest of the time on <inaudible> and zoom and I work. Um, what's about since the COVID about 30% of my clients are online. Now, I'd say out of my couple family work caseload, I would say about about half are that age group, which is actually a lot. Um , and kinda , do you wanna direct me or should just start , like talking about , so I think what , what we basically see at that age group , uh, that kind of slice of the , of the life cycle is really when the couple settles into a routine into the comfort or what we call homeo status in systemic therapy, and everyone's comfortable comfortably numb, shall I say? And then what happens is, is as the kids are go getting older and the parents are aging. Um, once the parents are one , once the couple's kind of in a comfortable place, what happens is that I feel like oftentimes it's going to like parallel kind of lives. They get comfortable. Each one's entrenched in their own system, in their own pattern, in their own dynamic, in their workplace. They divide up the roles. Who's gonna be in charge of what who's strong in, what area SAR calls it, high desire and low desire. I call it the ninety five seventy paradigm, which basically means every couple kind of divides it up to different categories. Who's the 95, and who's only the 70 95 . And what, so this comes at , I'll be referencing a lot of concepts and maybe we'll put in the description links to the actual videos, but this is a concept I've discovered on my own work, on my own marriage. Cause a lot of what I do in my videos is I, I talk about my own marriage and I bring in my wife to talk about these issues, cuz I believe once again , all therapists are hypocrites and I'm trying to minimize my hypocrisy. This comes out of my work with delete my wife, where I realized that for many years I was harboring this sense of superiority to her. And um, when she said talk to me numbers, I said, well, it's a 95, 70 dynamic. And since then, we've kind of coined that phrase. And when I worked with couples, I realize in every department, unconsciously couples divide up, who's better. Who's the better lover. Who's the better parents . Who's the better provider. And what happened is it's a comfortable unconscious decision. So the typical I'm just gonna use the stereotypical heterosexual relationship. The man is working he's so he's the 95 financially. The wife is more at home, so she's done 95 in parenting. Okay . And that's how they go on. That's how they're actually , they can live like that for many, many years. Um, I'll say one more thing. Step Patel . We all know and love obviously. So she talks about, we will all be married more than once. The question is, will be the same partner. So I've found that bras , like in recent years, that's kind of what I do. I help couples remarry. I've stopped measuring the success of marriage of how many years of couples together. I measured by how many marriages have they had, how many dynamics they've had, how many homeo statuses have they had. So from the second third date, these couples kind of have this homeo status where they divide up. Okay . So you're, you know , you're in charge of the money I'm in charge of parenting. You wanna have, you know, you're , you're the more passionate one. I'm the more he intellectual one and vice versa. And that's how they run for many, many years. And what usually happens in the clinic is when will they come to us, right. That age group, that, that slice of that dynamic, when do they usually come when something happens? OK .

Speaker 3: 6:29

So I understand that . You're saying that , uh , first of all, I love what you're saying about , uh , your own work on your own self and marriage, which is a very strong concept of Boeings that he said that you can bring someone to be differentiated as much as you work on yourself, your own differentiation and , um , being honest and vulnerable about it and bringing it up and working on it. And uh , and seeing that as part of your work and working together, even with your wife. And that sounds amazing. Um , and , uh , what I understand from you is that you're saying that in these years, something dies. Like, you know, just like you said, you need to like marry again and you see that as a goal . If I understand you, right. That , um, you know, something that you went in parallel ways or all kinds of things became rigid. And it's like a place to start assessing from the beginning and choosing each other from a new place.

Speaker 1: 7:24

So I would say this, my job is a couple's therapist I believe is to block exits, to block exits and raise the temperature. Most couples don't want are not looking for a second marriage because they don't know it's a it's possible. Cause most of us grew up with parents that had one marriage for 40 years or 50 years or they divorced. We all know people that have divorced and married, basically having the same dynamic again and again and again. So a lot of these couples will not come to me be they usually come when something happens when li either life slaps them in the face, whether it's cancer, one of their parents dying, COVID going bankrupt and affair. OK . Which is the classical one or when something, they just hit rock bottom and they're like, I want something different from my life . So it can be an external slap on the face or it could be hitting rock bottom internally. That's when I'm gonna that's when you're that's, when I at least meet these couples, I rarely will have a couple that like, oh , we're just in parallel lives. No, because usually they're just busy. You know, me and my wife we're in that , we're in that cohort, right. We have a nine year old , we have a six year old , we have a mortgage, we're moving an apartment in FBA. You know, my parents, I want like just that's life. Right. And for most couples, they just kind of plow through those years until something happens. I wanna combine this happens .

Speaker 3: 8:39

I'm just , uh , to , uh , make it

Speaker 1: 8:45

Emphasize again ,

Speaker 3: 8:46

What I'm you're saying is that , um , something does happen in these years. It's very significant that that's what we wanna pinpoint. But you're saying that won't bring people to therapy , they'll continue their lives regularly. What brings them when they get a slap in the face, something really happens. And then the problems raise up. But the problems were there before

Speaker 1: 9:05

The listen. I don't think it's like, listen. And this Guttman says 70% of all your problems are unsolvable, regardless of where you marry . We all have problems. There is no perfect family. We're all flawed. OK . The question is, how are you flawed? Doesn't matter if you're married Mo or hiim something's gonna happen. So I wouldn't say it's problems. It's these, these , these 95 seventies, the , I call this the original contract. The contract is signed on the third date unconsciously, and you run with it for 40 years. The thing is, is that we won't meet these people UN unless there's a problem. And then cuz before there's a problem. They're just used to that cuz that's what they see. And by the way, on a societal level, that becomes the norm. You know, I call this the single married mom, right? There's the mom, the, the wife is married, but she's basically ready the kids alone. Cuz the father's all day at work, you know, in Hebrew we call this the ABA Pago . There's a whole Facebook group with half a million men and it's called faulted FA faulty father where they joke about how irresponsible they are . Right. And the equivalent group of the women is called the righteous that's . They could where they're like, oh we're so right. And my husband, you know, he is never home. He doesn't talk to me. He's always on the screens. It's almost become like this running joke in Israel and also in the states. And I feel like that's one of the things I'm trying to fight against. I'm trying to help kind of, kind of do a societal revolution because unfortunately that has become the norm. And we , we can definitely go into the men's covert depression, which is their midlife crisis, which happens at this age and women usually kind of reinventing themselves or once they kind of close the child rearing days or bearing days, they're like, okay , and now what, and maybe later we'll give some examples from some couples I'm working that I'm, I'm meeting them exactly that phase for two different reasons. And I wanna kind of compare two different couples I'm working with coming for from two different reasons actually. Um, so, so, so you're right. Miha like they're gonna come to us when something happens to them or when one of them usually it's gonna be the wife who wants more, who wants more from life from her husband from herself. Um, and usually we'll see that once the youngest kid hits three, once the diapers and the breast and the breastfeeding is kind of over and then she suddenly has some time and she's like, wait, who are married to what's the story? What do I want? And this goes, and I have clients from the karate , from the hi secular from the modern, like I'm seeing this as a cross-cultural kind of phenomenon.

Speaker 3: 11:25

Why would you say it's the wife ?

Speaker 1: 11:28

Because usually what happens and this, we could do a different talk just about men's cover depression. Um, most men I'm feeling, and this, this goes back to Terry's reals work about , um , COVID men are underdiagnosed with cover depression, which basically manifests not as crying or sleeping or that could manifest as numbness, emotional numbness. And for many men, the bar is so low and all they think about is as long as my wife is not bitter or at least not bitter at me , I am happy. Mm . Um , they don't need much. I that's amount of times I hear in the clinic, I don't need much. I don't need much. Yeah, you do need much, but you don't know how to say it cuz you've never seen it. Whether they keep getting slammed , right. Cuz in today's modern world, the man to also make the money, but also be attentive to the kids and also be tender lover and, and holding, facilitating feelings. So we're at a , we're kind of an interesting intersection where not only men , women are faced with an impossible paradigm of be the best mom and be a professional for men. We see the opposite challenge, but it's the same. Keep providing, keep being sexy and manly, but also be very sensitive and sweet and be a parent and be present. And we're actually at a very interesting phase where the , where the traditional roles are being challenged on both genders. But you see the plow of the men, the plight of the men is less heard. Their pain is less heard because usually they're already labeled as , um, emotionally handicapped , um , numb, cold cynical

Speaker 3: 12:48

Spectrum.

Speaker 1: 12:49

Yeah. Yeah. My husband , yeah. I call this the intimacy queen and the emotionally handicapped partner. Um , and you can , um , I will reference some videos where I have like these videos where I talk about that, these specific phenomenons that I've been , I've been seeing in the clinic in the past decade. Uh , so yeah. That's why I I'll usually see the woman unless once again, a fair disease death of a parent major illness of a child, which can wake up either one of the partners

Speaker 3: 13:16

You're talking about one phenomena is what happens to the husband where he becomes , um , of element of depression is something that has to do with , uh, he would , um, um, appreciate if things are not too bad, he's okay with it. Cuz he doesn't know anything else. And you're saying there's something about midlife crisis that has something to do with some kind of , um , cause Bonne fish , you know, where am I? What did I achieve till today? Who

Speaker 1: 13:45

Cares? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:46

Who I did, I achieve my dreams or not. And some kind of acceptance in the end of the day, who, for who I am, but that is a process. And you're saying that's the men's men's side. And you mentioned the women's side that sometimes in this stage , um, have more time and may , uh , than they had before and they recreate themselves and they are looking on their side and seeing this guy and what is, what are we doing together? And they want to reassess. Right . And um, those are things that happen there, but they still have , uh , small children. I mean, they're not like babies, but you're, we're talking about a stage where children are between, you said three and let's say 10 plus.

Speaker 1: 14:24

Yeah, exactly. 10 to 12. Right. Or, or the eldest is already 18, but the youngest is three. Like I you're still you're you're not a hundred percent looking at your partner. You're still one eye looking at the kid, one eye, looking at your partner, one eye looking at your career and your parents are aging. Like there's a lot of things in the air mortgage. Like that's, what's happening. Your body's changing aging. I'll say also that, you know, I've noticed since I've had like my midlife crisis hit me right after I finished my doctorate at 40. And I've noticed that that's a, I noticed that it's real cuz I felt it on my body. And since that I've been working a lot with men and noticing it and I've noticed for women comes a little bit early 36, 37, depending again on the age of the kids where they have like that similar, like disillusionments where am I going? What's the point? Who cares? That kind of thing. Um, and, and I think for that specific population, it's also interesting because divorce is usually not an option. They're not looking like rarely will you see someone saying, well, I give up everything. You know, it's usually usually what we'll see if I have to summarize and make it more extreme. What you said, men just want quiet women want more from their men. And this is a generalization. Obviously I have examples for both ways, but I just wanted to give that as an example. Um, so then oftentimes it's, it's interesting to work with these couples because Asar says , um , if, if divorce is not an option, you won't be able to do a second order change. You won't be able to do a deep change because one of the risks of doing a deep change, the second order changes in systemic therapy, we call it is the option of divorce. So for a lot of couples, especially from the religious and Hirai community, where divorce is not an option, it becomes more challenging work and really assessing with a couple, how deep do you want to go? You know, in systemic therapy, there's a first order change, which is a behavioral change. Okay . Date night, you know, set up a time to have sex or stuff like that. Communication skills. And there's a second order change, which is a deep , um, kind of a , um, conceptual shift where I quit my role. I quit my 95, I'm renegotiating the whole relationship. And for some couples they're not looking for a second order change or usually the husband will be looking for a first order change and the wife will be looking for a second order change. And how do you , how do you manage that, that gap? That difference. Yeah . And for a lot of therapists, especially be early, the begin a therapist, they can , they don't know what the difference is. So they kinda dive into first order changes, but they're like, why is this not changing the dynamic?

Speaker 3: 16:48

And then they'll say in therapy that they did everything

Speaker 1: 16:51

Right. I've tried everything, I've come to therapy. You know, I I'll get clients that they've been to the three couple therapists. So they got all the communication skills. They do Imago, but they still hate each other's guts. So I say , I hear that you don't like, so I'm repeating all the insults you've told me, like, has that really changed? Has that, have I stopped being the emotionally handicapped? No. And that's where, you know, the differentiation paradigm, which is different than the attachment paradigm works a bit differently.

Speaker 3: 17:15

Can you say a little bit about that? What would be your approach? What would you do? What would be the concept that you try

Speaker 1: 17:22

To ? So , so, so here I'll , I'll outline the potential state model. This is the model that , um , I've developed together with my wife that kind of integrates improv therapy and education, which is basically my triangle. So the Mo it starts with play. The ability to be playful and play is the lubricants of life. That's what I call it. And you need that in everything. So also as a therapist, I'll a lot of , a lot , a lot of play, a lot of lubrication in my session . I'm you like a little bit of , a little bit , a little bit of like crude language to keep it playful. A lot of transparency, not to take myself too seriously, not to take the client too serious, not to take life too seriously. Cause you have to have play in order to grow. And we could just do a whole talk about play. Then the first pillar would be to own your shadow, to own all those negative aspects of yourself that usually project minimize repress or deny. If I had to make a generalization for men, it's usually their vulnerability, not their aggression and for women, it would be their aggression, anger, even hostility. So they don't own that. And then they project it on the other and that locks them in this, in this dynamic, which never helps. So I work a lot with the first thing I'll do is I'll block their exits, raise the temperature and always help. These people confront their shadow. Yeah . You talked about shadow, which is the kinda all the , the garbage bag of our, of our psychology, but in the shadow is my superpower . Shadows are not bad

Speaker 3: 18:43

Saying , let take it , you know , like to like, hold it , hold, hold me tight. Let's hold the stuff you're saying. I like what you're saying about , um, this combination between something very serious. It has to do with the ability to own my shadow and this playfulness that you're trying to bring in . You know, let's times you see these couple therapists or even sexual therapists that are so, you know, serious and you know , how can you talk about something? So that needs such playfulness and such , uh , looseness in such a strict and rigid way. So I love this. Uh , I think it's like you have to be very creative to be able to like, hold these two sides where you talk about something so serious in their life, you know, to , to be willing , to be vulnerable and to touch my shadows. And from the other side to be playful, to , to be able to like feel okay with myself and uh , with my body and with my spouse and you as a therapist to hold these two sides sound to me . Amazing. I would wonder how you do that . I mean , if you have that's one thing , um ,

Speaker 1: 19:49

Just lemme just that for a second that's So Me and my , we have a whole webinar where we teach couples to be more playful because everyone thinks they're playful, but not necessarily. It's an art form. You can learn. You can. The good news is everyone can become more playful, but need to practice it. And especially therapists. I mean, if I go back to what you said about Bowen is I like to say we're our own glass. We're our own weakest links as therapists. I am my own glass ceiling , which is my level of differentiation, but this also applies to how playful I am. If I'm not a playful person, I'm not gonna be able to create a potential state, a potential space, a transitional space of growth. So the first, and , and I wanna say like , if you own your shadow without play, and I , the reason I use the metaphor of lubricant, I purposely use a , a sexual metaphor because I feel like I wanna go to that shadow. Like , um, having intercourse without lubrication is sometimes hurtful and it's too rough and it's too aggressive. But then I also say lubrication without the meaty part , without owning your shadow is not, it's not deep. It's not, it's not, you need both just to be playful and silly is not enough. Do you understand? And I feel like a lot of times therapists will either go the very playful or silly in light, or they'll go super analytical. You need both . Cause one enables the other

Speaker 3: 21:05

Reminds me what you're saying now, what that , um , I forgot who said it, you know, about intimacy, that's intimacy, you know, the ability to bring yourself and to really like S talks about making love with open eyes, you know, to like really , um , exactly . Be able to also bring myself fully and also see the other, right. Yes. Fully. Yes . And that's like , uh , very , um, that's what I hear you saying. So how do you do that and still say stay playful.

Speaker 1: 21:39

So I , I mean the , this connects to my , to the , to the PhD of like, I was wondering, why was I not ? When I was in the public sector, why was I not burning out like the other therapist? And I realized maybe it's my improv background. And then what I did with my doctorate is I , I basically taught improv. I taught a course in Hebrew university for three years and then measured its effect on students. Today. I call this training, the ninja therapist training, and there's a training I've developed where I help therapists maintain that playful spirit and play is not just always happy. Play can also be playful is also very vulnerable. It's about owning your shadow. If I make a mistake, if I , if there's a rupture, me , Kai , confuse your name. I called you David. Instead of Miha , how can I own that own my shadow and stay in the heat or in S's metaphors, stay in the crucible cause therapy just like intimate relationships is a crucible. And my job is to block exits and raise temperature and have the crucible hot. But I'm also part of that crucible because once again, we're , it's experiential symbolic. So I I'm in there. I'm part of that dynamic. It's a , it's a three person , psychology, not a one person or a two person. Cause I'm also,

Speaker 3: 22:40

You mentioned a few times this , um , um, strategy of , um , or way of work where you , um, block escape , um , doors and you increase the temperature . Can you explain that metaphor a little more?

Speaker 1: 22:57

Yeah. So , uh , again, we'll put some videos there I have, but the BA basic ideas like this, most of us don't are , we have so many exits, let's go back to these couples. There's so many exits work , uh , friends , um , TV, computers, porn, whatever it is, right. So these couples don't meet. So what I really believe is the way to help people grow is to block their exits, not to let them run away or smoke screen . OK . So physically, I mean, not physically blocking them , but, but in the room or even on zoom, I will say, no, no, no , don't go over there or talk to me in numbers, bring this down . Are you, do you , how , how important is this to you from one to 10 ? And you can't say five I'm purposely blocking them , or like, he's going on this long lecture. I stop in the middle of say , okay , what are you basically saying ? Do you wanna have sex with your , or don't you , your wife , right. And that's a , that's like an example where I'm blocking X , I'm raising the temperature and I'm not letting my, my partner kind of squeal away from it. And cause the problem is these couples are basically smoke screening each other for years or even gaslighting, which is even worse. Right. And

Speaker 3: 23:59

Then they use therapy to do the same .

Speaker 1: 24:01

Right. And then they basically, they smoke screen the therapist and cause we're nice. Mm-hmm mm-hmm <affirmative> and the client, you know, you're letting the client lead. You can spend years in , in therapy. And I actually talk about anything. And basically I'm reminding all of us therapy is an exercise in relationships in intimacy, right? So they're gonna do to me what they do to each other. That's why a lot of the school of experiential symbolic system, because what they're doing to me, they're actually doing tol, but it's also symbolic. And then what I try to do in vivo is try to react to them in a different way. While their partner is eating popcorn, watching me react to their partner in a different way. And they're learning how to relate differently. And it's easy for me to relate to them cause I'm not married to them so I can love them more openly. I can hate them more aggressively. I can call them on their shadow more openly because they are not part of my system.

Speaker 3: 24:46

Wow .

Speaker 1: 24:47

And that's why I believe in couple's therapy because the problem is with individual therapy, by the way, this age group, they , a lot of times they'll go to separate therapists. Usually the wife will go to separate therapists and then what we have, we have a clinical affair. I call it where the therapist becomes the amazing savior, the lover, right? The clinical lover and the husband stays the stays like the, the numb, you know? Yeah. He's just the bum, but my therapist. Oh, he's amazing. He's amazing. I laughs with me , we cry and we laugh in ways . He , it doesn't help their marriage. It's just, just , you know, creates a bigger rift.

Speaker 3: 25:20

He'll try to bring them together into the room to meet each other and not separate it .

Speaker 1: 25:27

Yeah. It's a two for one , I say, why a, you get to confront yourself B you get to see if you have another marriage with this partner, cuz oftentimes you don't have another marriage with this partner. And then you need to make, you can decision whether you want the same marriage for the next 20 years or you want a different marriage, but then you might have to risk being with a D

Speaker 3: 25:41

Person

Speaker 1: 25:42

Do .

Speaker 3: 25:42

Yeah. But you say what SNA said that you need to risk. You have to have this ability to say I'm willing to separate

Speaker 1: 25:49

Even . Yeah . That has to be it ha I don't encourage divorce, but I don't feel like my job , my job is not measured by whether the couple stays together or not. My goal is that they remarry hopefully each other.

Speaker 3: 25:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:00

That's, that's my goal. I

Speaker 3: 26:01

Have a question that has to do with the life cycle , this stage of life. Right . You know , cause you're talking about something that's requires so much work in our work, you know, and the willing to willingness to maybe become playful is something very hard by itself. And the willingness to face my shadow is also so much needs so much energy. And we're talking about a stage of life that you yourself said that, you know, you have so many different things that are, you still have the children that are need you not as much as babies, but they sure need you, your parents, yourself , your career and midlife crisis and everything together. Where do you have the capacity in the room to do ? You're talking about how do you even , um, convince the couple to be willing to do what it takes?

Speaker 1: 26:50

Well, here, here's where it gets a bit easier because once again, why did they come to me? Cause something happened. So usually I would don't have to. So here's another thing I wanna say. Another , another mistake a lot therapists do is they assume whoever sits across from them as a client, first thing to suss out, who's a client. Who's not, who's a visitor. Who's just a complainant. So one of them , yeah. You're either a visitor, a complainant or a client. Most people start off probably as complainants, but some of them are visitors and then don't waste your time on them . You cannot want this more than them. The second you want it more than them it's doomed, but that's a different talk. Yeah . So because they come to me because something happened, whether it's an affair or one of the partners is threatening to leave. So what I'll do is I'll just basically show them because I can't want this more than them. And I'm trying to kind of soften my savior complex . I'm saying , okay , this is how it's gonna unfold. If, if you don't do anything, if you stay the emotionally handicapped, she's gonna have either a clinical affair or a real affair or leave you. And just own that. I mean, again, I , I didn't finish the model , but the first step is just owning your shadow. But then there's two other ones and I'll just, I'll just add them here just for the flu, for the flow. So play right, owning your shadow. After that, let it land. Learn the ability to let what your partner's saying in don't get defensive. Let that land into your body cuz your body's is smarter than your mind. Your body's always in the present, et cetera . That's a different talk. And then the third one is save a thing. I help couples become more direct blunt, one dimensional and clear with their partner, whether it's good. You're amazing. I love you. Or it's very negative. It's like, I hate that behavior. Or you really humiliated me in front of my parents, but it has to go in this order first, you gotta own your shadow. Then you gotta let it land only . Then you can say the thing. So the , the way I work with couples is I really follow that model and I help them block. Let what she's saying in, or let what I'm saying in, and then I wanna hear you bluntly directly. One dimensional, clear, not complicated, not I have a not ambivalence. Like what, where are you for today? And that requires the tax you have to pay for working in this style is be willing to have a lot of ruptures. A lot of ruptures, my therapy room is filled with , uh , I'm also in the crucible and I get slammed. I mean I finish the day bleeding cuz I get jabbed on my clients all day because I'm jabbing them because it's a face to face because I'm wrestling with them because this concept of Esther can dough, which I've never found a good translation in English. But I think everyone here knows it. Like most of us don't have that. Most of us don't have this in our life. Most of our therapists are usually not ES can dough and it's my job. So I'm gonna be an dumb , I like that . And a lot of times I have to reframe , um , what they're experiencing, whether they're either insulted or herb , by me saying , I'm not trying to attack you. But what you're feeling right now is an adult and that's how it feels. And I want you to rewire your brain. This should be your standard. What you're feeling now with me as a therapist and , and look at the part , this is what your wife has not had for the last five years, 10 years, 20 years, you guys are out of shape. That's when I'm I'm that like , that's the language you guys are out of shape .

Speaker 3: 30:02

You haven't been . So if like started your answer, you're saying, first of all, they have a motivation that has to do with something that happened and that brings them in and they're sometimes willing cuz they don't have any choice. Cause if it's not it's to live or die, you know, something like happened , it's very,

Speaker 1: 30:16

Or they'll leave us or my wife will leave me.

Speaker 3: 30:18

Yeah. So then they're willing to like maybe do the , do what it takes, but still I, I wonder, even though after you also said another two things that are , um, part of the , that are very hard to own , you know, you talked about owning my shadow that by a , that everybody likes to do a on the other persons chest , you know , my partner is UHS about himself . Um , it takes so much energy. How do you convince them? That's what I'm trying to understand to be willing to do the work. And I understand if it's, if it's , they're not always that motivated to do everything it takes . So how do

Speaker 1: 31:06

They're rarely motivated? Right . So the two ways I do it , I don't try to a , I model it First of all .

Speaker 3: 31:14

Okay . That's

Speaker 1: 31:15

I modeled by being blunt and transparent. That's a super important point cause I am my own glass ceiling. So at first I model it, by the way, I did talk about myself, by the way, I talk about my own relationship by my own struggles, by my imediacy skills setting to here and now here,

Speaker 3: 31:30

Which is not. So , um, you know , um , the <inaudible> , you know ,

Speaker 1: 31:35

That's not so accepted. I know, I know.

Speaker 3: 31:36

But in couple therapy it is different than , uh , individuals. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:40

I mean, I also realized that, you know, we're going back to all therapists are hypocrites, right? How can I tell them be authentic and real and vulnerable when I'm not like I, as a young social worker, I tried, I started doing family therapy when I was single with no kids. So obviously I was in hypocrite. Right. But I think through the years, obviously, cuz I had no kids and I'm talking to people, I have 10 kids, like who am I to tell them ? I mean a little bit of humble pie here, like a little bit of humble pie, but I really think that it's not really about telling them not doesn't have to go. Like when I supervise therapists, not everyone's, you know, comfortable talking about their own marriage, but at least it's about comfortable about speaking. And this is called a Clara hill talk causes imediacy skills saying the here and now of the session. For instance, I see you're a little bit hurt for what I said there before. I like you're saying that you're sad , but it's not landing for me. Is sadness so much like to have the courage, to call people out to say the thing in vivo in the session , but play is what's gonna help me kind of repair that rupture. Cause because I'm playful. If I say something to you MI I'm wrong, you you'll I'll create an atmosphere. You can say MI , I say , whatcha , are you talking about? You're crazy, right? Like it's not gonna be , uh , you know, it's not gonna be an error and mistake , you know, like a , a Alliance failure. We're, we're softening that we're entering the world of play in potential state. I'm reminding Donald Winnco who said a therapist who cannot play should not be a therapist. Wow . So that's what helps me do that. So once again, I model it, the second thing I do, I try not to want more than them. So what I will do is I'm gonna mirror to them very clearly. What's gonna happen if they don't do it. But then I'm also, and this is another concept. I think it's from Whitaker detachment from outcome. Like it's your life like? Um, Whitaker used to say, I think I have a , I'm taking a hundred percent responsibility of their process. I take zero responsibility over the results and at moments where I work too hard and a lot of therapists, we work too hard. We take ownership as if it's our, like we have to prove it. No it's attached from outcome. It's their life. You wanna stay their emotionally handicap partner. Fine. But just so you know, this is what might happen or for the female partner. Right. So you've been a martyr and you're mind, you're a martyr for 20 years, that's your right. But, and but you're being, you're basically a , a married single mom. Is that how you wanna continue? Because then basically what you're creating is this model that fathers are overrated and then basically your daughters will be looking for a man just like your husband. Is that what you want ? Like, it's very like that . And then they can make a decision and oftentimes couples , um , they don't, they don't wanna do a second order change.

Speaker 3: 34:15

So you're saying that what you do in this situation, your thing , you know, that this stage in life is like crazy and people are so overwhelmed with all kinda things in life . You said, you know, it's kind of a medium , medium place cuz they're after the real consumed years. Right. They're starting to see the light where they can not the light , but theirselves maybe . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . And that's where they start, you know ? But when a something happens, you're saying one , I , uh , model I model , uh , way of relationship as a therapist with them , um, a direct a , um, um, talking about my shadows also in some degree and the ability to be vulnerable. And you're like somehow trying to sell them . If I can say it this way, that maybe it's CDI , you know, it's Cade to try to, to be this way and to change, cuz that can give you a lot. That's one , what I'm hearing from you. And the second thing you're saying is that you do , um , show them what will happen. If not, if you won't take this opportunity, you're hearing therapy, you did do that. Something happened to bring you in here. Now you have the opportunity to do the work that can give you a different quality of life. Do you want it or not? And uh , if not, this will be the outcomes you this . I mean you're gonna , and so you're bringing all things , all kinds of ways to , uh , make them , um , maybe choose do .

Speaker 1: 35:51

I would say I , I , this I somewhere respect the client , not their business . I respect , but not their narrative explain . And I know that's also kind of a bit weird , but like the idea is I'm trying to confuse them, confuse them and shake them up. And with, and I need , this is real practice with, with letting go with detachment from outcome. Like every time I draw , like I say, everything I say is subjective. So I'm drawing the worst case scenario. The best case scenario is you guys, you get , you get the quiet, you wanted it . You have less fighting and mediocre sex for the next 40 years. Cool. And a lot of by the way, a lot of partners will stop therapist , actually. I'm okay with that . I rather, I rather that than what I don't know. And then as a therapist, I really need to practice attachment often than say , okay , it's your life? So you won't have a second marriage with your first wife, like right now with GATA , we're starting our third marriage. Not everybody wants that. And that's legit. And I think that's, and again, we can't want more than our clients that we always make that mistake. And the second you wanted more than your client , you're just gonna , you're gonna hit full of resistances. That's not right. That's not precise. No, no, no. And then you just get frustrated then you, you label them as , um , resistant clients and then you just go into this whole and maybe I'll just give two quick examples from

Speaker 3: 37:07

Two . We have , we have 10 minutes.

Speaker 1: 37:09

Oh we have 10 . Yeah . So , uh , so should we talk about something else or, or should I,

Speaker 3: 37:14

If you have examples that are brief, you know , I

Speaker 1: 37:16

Think good . So I'll give two different examples to karate couples. Um, one they've been married for 20 years, nine kids. She now, I mean, he's a , you know, he's one of those people that never finished high school and you know, he dropped , he's a dropout. He dropped out of Yeshiva and then he basically started a business and he's kind of a businessman and he's done well for himself. And the wife has now , uh, the last stages of doing her masters in, in , uh , how do you call that in English?

Speaker 3: 37:46

Uh , educational

Speaker 1: 37:47

Counseling, education of counseling. So she's transitioning into therapy world and she's like, I want something different. Now. What's interesting about this case is she's, she's been, she's completely financially dependent on him, but she wants more from him. And he's like, what do you want? I've been the same. So she's unilaterally changing their contract, demanding a second marriage, but she's not sure , but she doesn't want a divorce. And she's, she's not really sure what she wants. She wants more for me to be more open and more touching and more hugging and more asking, but she's not willing to let go of her Mar hood of her being alone all these years suffering, you know, taking a backseat for all his plan because he'd go off for meetings. He'd fly abroad for weeks on end. But then again, that was the original contract. Cause when , when they met, she was 17 or 18 and she had no education and he came to save her. And that's just , that's , that's like one example where they're coming because of a rock bottom situation. Not because nothing happened like there wasn't a major crisis in their marriage. That's why the husband was like, why am I here ? He was a visitors. Like, I really don't know, but she's talking about divorce. I'm like, why , why ? And he , by the way, they're still in therapy. Now he's still a little bit ambivalent. He's not sure how much he wants to reinvent himself. He's happy with who he is . You know, the emotionally handicapped working like a dog , you know, wants quiet , maybe more sex from his wife. But like that's, he's more or less content with , with his first marriage. That's one example. I'll give the opposite example of a difficult ready couple , um, five kids. He he's been having affairs for years , years, years, years, years , um, also very successful professionally. And I'm meeting them after two or three couple therapies where she's like, I've had it, I've had it, I've had it, but she hasn't really had it cause she keeps forgiving him and then doing another round and then another round. And every time she ups the guarantees, she wants this and she wants to do it into a lawyer and they signed a , uh , a financial agreement, but it's still the same dance where he's basically, you know, the provider can, you know, he has the control and she still sees herself. Once again, as son of a victim, who's always suffering, but she's not willing, you know, she threatens with divorce, but there's a part of her. That's scared , even though she is working, she's working full time , but making , you know, she won't be able to maintain the lifestyle she currently has, but she's more focused on him, repenting, you know, and guaranteeing that he will never betray , you know, betray her again than actually growing herself. And that's being replicated with me where I am being cast either as her savior or as her persecutor. And she keeps wanting me to change her husband, but she's, she's actually does not wanna confront herself. And she's scared of actually moving , oh , shadows . She's not. Yeah. Yeah . Usually what I'll see is the women that , especially women who are finding the self in the victim slash martyr roles , it's very hard for them to own their shadows, DACA , the men who are labeled as either aggressive or, you know, emotionally handicapped, it's easier for them because anyways, they're getting slammed all the week. So it's, it's left for the transition. But if I'm the victim for the past 20 years, so owning my shadow means I have a responsibility cuz in systemic therapy, I like to say you're never a hundred percent innocent, but you're never a hundred percent guilty. And for a lot of these women or men owning their shadow means owning responsibility or in systemic owning their secondary gains from the current dance . And that is very hard for a lot of people . But then again, you spread some play on it and you own some of it yourself and you're modeling it. So it eases, it's like a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. So spoonful of play lets the interpretation or the reflection go down . A

Speaker 3: 41:44

Sounds like , um , creative , um , um , dance as a therapist, you know, to bring, to , to see it as such a , um , you call it like a creation

Speaker 1: 42:02

Therapy, wait, psychotherapy is not, you know, Freud tried to make it , uh , science. It's not a science , it's an art it's kinda to reclaim the art. And I wanna , I

Speaker 3: 42:11

Totally ,

Speaker 1: 42:12

Brad Keeney talks about, he says once the shaman or the prophet was, everything was an educator, was an artist, was a therapist. It was a person who went through all these processes. And today we've separated therapy, art and education to different disciplines. They were the same. They all talk about change and it's time to reclaim as therapist to reclaim those different parts of ourselves to be alive. And also when we think , cause we need to enjoy ourselves. Cause if not, this is an inhumane profession. We're basically loaded this trauma five days a week, six days a week, and then we're supposed to live our lives. Now we have to find that creativity or us , we will burn out or we will come in imposter syndrome or we'll become a dry , cynical, sarcastic person, which is really sad.

Speaker 3: 42:53

So sorry that we don't have more time . Cause I feel like you know about this and you're bringing in . So , um , um , um , concepts , yeah . Concepts that, you know, in syndrome and everything you talked about now could be so interesting to talk about . So I'm sorry we have like a few minutes . Um , do you wanna like say a few things about where can people , uh , find you ? I'm sure we're so first of all, I'm gonna links also, but um ,

Speaker 1: 43:28

So I'll just say briefly, so the website's called potential state , so it's potential state.com one word and then there's a YouTube channel called potential state . You search inside YouTube and there's 112 videos. There's the potential state podcast, which is the same content , but an audio. And that I have a blog on psychology today, which is called the other side of relationships where I kind of dive deeper into that. So all of those links are in my website called potential data.com and there's also a newsletter, which we send out every two weeks with more original videos and content. And obviously you guys can be in touch with me , um, and I'd be happy to help and Miha wanna thank you for this opportunity and wish you and all your students that's Laha and may we be able to, you know, bring joy and connect people to themselves and to each other.

Speaker 3: 44:11

So first of all , AED , a lot , lot information, I mean, intense information and very exact and very clear and also lots of playfulness. I mean, I think you show you , uh , modeled it very nicely here and I , I enjoyed it very much .

Speaker 1: 44:33

I hope . Thank you so much .

Speaker 3: 44:35

Yeah . So thank you very much .

Speaker 1: 44:36

So that was my talk with drer . I hope you found interesting and engaging as much as we did and I'll see you next .

Speaker 2: 44:47

You've been listening to the potential state podcast For more information, visit us@potentialstate.com . Thanks for listening.