Embrace Your Inner Owl - A conversation about art, multi-potentialities and living your full self

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the potential state.My name is Dr.AEL Manian today I'm talking to Todd Shey.Todd Shey is an actor,dancer choreograph,choreographer performer.He's a photographer.He's also a shiatsu practitioner.He's a mind body therapist.He's a very,very talented person and kind of,he's what I would define a multi potential light,a person that has,um,SP several interests,several passions,and he,they,and they kind of integrate them.And obviously that's also how I see myself.We also call it a slasher,right?So I'm a therapist slash actor slash teacher slash educator slash conductor.And we talk about how does that come to be through my own personal story and kind of it tips if you hear this talk and you're like,wait,I'm multi potential,right?So how can you kind of bring that into the world?And then toward the end of the talk,we have this very interesting moment where he blacks,my exits and he forces me to face,um,a little bit of my shadow of labeling myself as an artist,seeing myself as a multidisciplinary artist.And I think this has relevance for all of us,cuz we're all artists,cuz we're all on the image of God and God is the ultimate artist.So I hope you enjoy this.Talk as much as I do.I hope you had some a,you'll see there's some action insights both of us have as we go a very fluid conversation and enjoying

Speaker 2: 1:24

You are listening to the potential state podcast With Dr.Asai Romanelli.

Speaker 3: 1:34

Okay.Welcome everybody to an exciting,uh,talk with my friend,Dr.Elli.Um,and he was a doctor before he was an official doctor

Speaker 4: 1:46

<laugh>

Speaker 3: 1:48

And that brings us to our topic.Uh ASEL how are you doing today?Tell us where you're sitting and what your mood is.

Speaker 4: 1:57

So I am in F Saba,which is a city kind of north of Tel Aviv in Israel.I am sitting in my clinic.My mood is excited.I love you.I known you for many years,but we haven't been really in touch.So it's kind of,uh,kind of reacquainting and,and I'm kind of excited cuz I don't really know where we're gonna go with this conversation.I know we can go a lot of different places and I'm good cuz this is actually a good day for like I'm happy to have this conversation.

Speaker 3: 2:22

Yeah.I am also super excited.Um,talking to you last time,seeing we have so many dots to connect and something I love is threading needle between all these different locations to see what new insights we can garner from the conversation.And uh,I,I said,you're a doctor.Well,so that's,that's a good way to start.We played,you could say there's an improvisational game of expert,right?Who's the expert in the room.I think you might have taught me the game or the score.And we won up each other by being the expert.And I thought that was an awesome skill to battle certain doubts that I had in different areas of,you know what,I'm the expert here.I'll fake it till I make it.So as a guy who is,uh,you used to send me that video on the multi potential I talk and a guy who is definitely a generalist,but likes to go deep in a few areas.So what you would call a multi potential light or you just said a slasher artist slash educator slash therapist or for you would be,

Speaker 4: 3:33

I'd say therapist slash artist slash educator,no therapist slash educator slash artist.Yeah.That's that's my tri that's my order.Right?

Speaker 3: 3:41

So on that journey and I thought that you were groundbreaking in actually going for these things also when you didn't necessarily have all the credentials,but had definitely the experience and the creativity to go for it.I wanted to hear from you,what are some of the tools you use to jump in,to break through,to go for it?Even when you didn't have the100%knowledge about what you're doing,but you had the passion or the desire to go for it.And so yeah,I mentioned playing the expert for using play,but I wonder what your take on it is.

Speaker 4: 4:26

So let's start with a little bit in the background.I think for me,I grew up as a regular kid.I wasn't really excelling in anything.My brother was a very good artist.He used to draw and paint and sculpt and I was kind of ordinary like the word I used for myself as an ordinary kid in that sense.And,and,and I kind of grew up in a house where there wasn't a lot of boundaries that,I mean,my parents were doing their thing.You know,I grew up at a house with depression,so they were just trying to survive.So we were basically left to ourselves.And I think for me,my self perception was I am regular.There's nothing extraordinary about me.Um,you know,guitar at age15,16,but again,it wasn't nothing I touched,turned to goal.Like there was nothing that I was naturally inclined to.And I think after the army as well,like I wasn't,I didn't really know where I was gonna go.And,and that kind of continued through backpack.I mean,working in New York city,I thought I was gonna study acting in philosophy,but I suddenly didn't work for me there.And then I went to south America and then I,it was time to go to university.And once again,I,I didn't have a clear passion.I never had like,I want to be a doctor.I want to be a lawyer.I want to be an actor.And I signed up for business and philosophy.And then the first two weeks there,you have two weeks to,you can switch a major in the first two weeks.And I just happened to,it was like into this.I was like,what is this like,economics like that wasn't me.And I just switched to whatever I thought was the most interesting,which was people and that was behavioral sciences.So it was sociology,anthropology and psychology.And,and still at the time,I didn't really know what I wanted to be.My mom was a therapist and I knew I didn't wanna be a therapist cuz she was the therapist of the type.I didn't like to keep saying how you feeling,how you doing and the gap between the way she was at work.And what I felt at home was,was too much.And my dad was a civil servant.So,and I think what happened there is I just,just kind of did what everyone did.I did an undergrad kind of whatever I'll study,everything kind of I'll study that.And,and then on the side I started taking,um,improv classes and I joined the dance troop of the university for the first time.Um,why did it on dance troop again?I was never a dance,but it was,uh,it was free.I got to meet girls and hot girls and dance and it was a workout and I've always wanted to study ballet and it was like a fun amateur thing to do.And did you

Speaker 3: 6:45

Have any,any,uh,resistance or pushback?

Speaker 4: 6:48

No.I mean again,

Speaker 3: 6:50

Environment are people saying really dance you,

Speaker 4: 6:52

First of all,it it's like a,um,I dunno how to say that in English,like,uh,<inaudible>like ethnic dancing,absolutely like folk dance.Yeah.So it's like with the flare,you know,the flare things and you're like,and so it was,it was the most awkward,not sexy,not cool dance,but I guess I didn't really care because I think one of the perks of a being a man,so I don't have no one was ever looking at me and B an environment where nobody was really grilling me for good or for bad.I kind of just did it.And,and I was,I was living in a different city,nobody knew me there and I just enjoyed the,the music and the,the physical expression.And I mean,I never see,I mean,I was embarrassed a little bit,but I was just doing it for fun.And then on the side I started doing improv classes in,in college.And again,in both of those,I wasn't excelling at all.And in my last year there,I joined a community theater program in bar Shava,which is the city down the south.And the teacher came up to me and,and then I,and I was graduating that year for my undergrad and because I'm competitive,I thought I wanted to be a psychologist.So I applied and I was sure I was gonna get in.And I didn't,that was the first time in my life where I life was like,you're not good enough.And that kind of broke me.And then parallel to that.My director,my community theater director,she's like,you should go study acting.You have a,do you have an act for that?I'm28years old.And I'm thinking to myself now,one more thing I wanna say in the background,my dad who was an Italian Jew from Brooklyn,his dream was to go into show business.And when he graduated high school,he told his parents,he wants to become an actor and they were Italian immigrants who fled the Holocaust.They're like,no,go get an education.And,and for the rest of his life,art was a hobby,but he's80years old.And I know his biggest Fe his biggest regret is that he didn't go for it fast forward.I'm28years old.I'm in that same intersection.Um,and of I'm graduating my undergrad.Should I go to,to acting class,to acting school?And my dad says,go for it.But there was a part of me that felt I wasn't good enough and not in the self-deprecating.I like I knew I wasn't a star and I didn't want enough to start waiting tables at age29,you know,and like scraping odd jobs.And I decided to go to London.I didn't know what to do.So I stalled.So I took a year and I just became,I worked for the Jewish agency.I was an,I was a community worker in London with the Jewish community.And for me,that was stalled.That was like pausing life.Because for me at the time,I didn't know what I wanted to be.I got blocked doing a master's in clinical psychology.And for me at the time,education was the only way forward cuz I grew up on college stories.I grew up in army stories or on art stories cuz my dad was an artist his whole life,but it was always on the side.It was always a hobby.Right.And basically London for two and a half year was basically LA LA land.I just,I was,I was a Jewish educator during the day,but I was single.I was bored.So I started going to drop in improv classes in downtown London,in dance,contact,improv theater,a little bit of music singing.Like I was basically just sucking on the nipple of London,of the improv scene in London.Um,because I had no personal life.I had no life and I was basically during the day I was,I was in self presentation.Is this interesting?Like I,I wanna give how I got there.Is this okay?Or I'm not really answering.It's good.It's a good background.Yeah.Don't worry.I'm I'm no,cause this is the,this is the birth of the multi potential.Like,like how do,how are we born or how do we come out?And I'm wrapping up two years and the offer me a third year,but then I'm realizing it's time to come back to reality because in London it was,again,it was a lateral move.There was,it was Lala land.There was no,I wasn't anything.I was an educator.I was,I was going to services.I was,I mean I slowly started incorporating art in my educational work,but I didn't see myself as an educator.It was clear to me that I wasn't gonna go to rabbinical school,but I didn't really know.And I was really frustrated at the time and I was scared coming back cuz coming back to Israel meant,okay,what are you gonna do when you grow up?And I remember my girlfriend at the time,her name was Keely.She said,I said,listen,I'm not good at anything.I'm not good at anything.Like I'm not an amazing educator.I'm not a really good dancer.I'm certainly not a good actor.And I like,oh and she said to me at the time,oh I haven't thought about this.More that she said,like,she didn't say multi potential,but she said like,you're good at different things.And the things that people like you,what they create is to create something new.And at that time I didn't,I knew I wanted to work with people.I knew I wanted to be in the therapy world.I wasn't really sure how,and it was either psychodrama or social work.And I,and I knew that if I go to psychodrama,I wouldn't feel like a psychologist or a drama guy.It would be,it wouldn't be enough.So I said,I wanna go old school.I wanna go straight to social work,clinical social work,but still I wasn't really sure.And I think what happened to me coming back to Israel and that's where we met.Tyler was a very important intersection because I came off from a two and a half year Lala land.And by the way,I wanted to say,I think those two years in London changed my life because nobody knew me in London and I could really go to dance classes.And I started perform,I,I joined a theater company.I started performing for free,but like I stepped out of the normal as sale.Who's just kind of whatever,not artistic,not creative.I came back and I started studying,uh,clinical social work.I was working still as an educator,but then I decided to,and here,here comes to like,I dunno if it's stupidity or big balls or what was it?But I,I came up to this dance school.I always just take classes like,listen,I wanna teach improv,let me teach improv to your dancers.And um,he was very,very generous.And he said to me,sure.And I was like,whoa,really?And he is like,yeah.And then he said to me the status,he said,how do you know you're a teacher?He said to me when students come and uh,that's what he said to you.That's what he said to me.

Speaker 3: 12:50

Okay.So you,you improvised your way into teaching improvisation.

Speaker 4: 12:54

I,I,I,who never went to a dance school who never studied dance,I'm gonna teach in a dance school.And I just,here's,here's a interesting anecdote.So I,I,I land back from London.I pitched this to this teacher at these shout,by the way,hashtag shout out to him.Um,and then I say to my mom and to my best friend and both of'em are like,what?No.How can you teach?Like,it was very clear to me that the system was not ready for me to break.And I know that if I wouldn't have gone to London to the other side of the world,I would've never had the balls to say to someone,let me teach in your dance class.Right.And what happened at that phase was really interesting,cuz that was my first imposter syndrome moment.I remember going into the dance school,VE Togo dance school,downtown Jerusalem.And I'm seeing all these dancers with their,you know,their socks that go up and they're tight.So they're all muscular and hot and I'm like,okay,let's stand in two rows.I'm like,what the hell am I doing?And I start teaching and it's wonderful.And because I have a day job as a Jewish educator,again,it's a hobby I get paid,but it's peanuts.And I see that I'm kind of going in my dad's path where arts on the side and when you're doing a master's in social work,so I'm doing therapy,but you're a student.So again,it's all Lala land.And I guess this is the privilege of being middle class.I was never hungry for bread.I was never like,you know,I was paying my own bills,but like,because you know,in master I was pyramid,like when you're hungry for bread,you can't think about art or fulfillment or love or what is the meaning of life?So I was comfortably in the middle and still I was flipping hats.Like I felt like when I was doing my Jewish education work,I was kind of like the learned Jew.And when I was clinic doing therapy,I was trying to be the,the introverted deep therapist.And when I was teaching and performing,um,I was trying to be an extroverted king.And at the time I decided I want to perform specifically something that's called playback theater,which is improv based on people's stories,kind of a cousin of psycho drama,which is very popular in Israel.And I tried to get into this one company,the best company in Israel that they require me that you finish acting school.So I'm already faking it,teaching in a dance class,teaching a dance school.And I tried to audition for her,but she says,I'm sorry,you're not an actor.So I decide I'm gonna take her out for coffee every time I'm in Tel Aviv,I'm gonna basically hit on this seven year old woman keep taking her out until one day that will come.And it took two year.It took a year,a year and a half later.She calls me,she's like,we have a show in Jerusalem tomorrow.Can you make it?We need an actor.I get into that company.And after two months she says to me a sale,um,I wanna tell you something,don't get insulted.The second someone says to you don't get insulted.<laugh>you know,it's gonna bur right.She says to me a sale,I,I don't think you need.I don't think,I don't remember.She said,I don't think your callings to be an actor,your callings to be a teacher.And,and then I graduate.I become a social worker.I'm still doing improv on the side.I'm teaching on the side.And I see,and in my cuz I grew up with I,my parents are not multi potential.My,my parents are specialists.They do one thing.And uh,and I think what happened over the course of becoming a therapist and then finding myself,being artistic director of a professional playback theater company,I found myself again and again in these situations getting paid for my arts.And then I did the artist's way at work,which is a Julia Cameron book.It's the sequel to the artist's way.And I remember doing an exercise about core beliefs,about art and money.And my dad came up and my,my dad's voice was like,you,art is a hobby.You can,you can make money from it.And I remember when I started getting paid for my art,that was,was a big

Speaker 3: 16:38

Chapter seven.I think you,I think you came up to me one day,chapter seven

Speaker 4: 16:42

<laugh>yeah,maybe.And,and somewhere in the middle there,me and you meet in what is the legendary,the infamous,uh,loop station trio,which I'm sure you'll talk about in a second or not.And,and I have to say that even till today,like,even though I,I,I,I do dabble in all three worlds and maybe we'll talk about the,the attempt to integrate them through the doctorate.But I feel like I've never said I never thought I was gonna be a multi potential light.I was just enjoying lots of different things until I realized,like,that's what I wanna do with my life.And,and the symptom for multi potential is we always feel like we're the ugly duck wherever we are.We're not good enough in whatever field I remember around therapists.I feel like I'm,shallowing too extroverted around actors.I'm not extroverted enough around educators.I'm not learning enough.And there was a lot of this feeling like I'm not good enough,like this it's a combination of imposter syndrome and ugly duckling.And I remember training as a couple family therapists,you do a lot of work behind a one way mirror where people watch you work.And I used to get slammed every single week.Like,why are you talking so much?You're taking up too much space.It's too much about you.Why did you stand up?Why you,you know,touching them on the shoulder.And,and I ha I don't,I think what gave me the strength was like,I just realized that it's not that I,I put my head down until I finished each training.Like,I wasn't those people that said,screw this,you know,why do therapists?Like I was like,and via,I'm gonna finish the training,I'll get the certificate.And then I'm gonna do whatever I want.And I think for a lot of multi potential sites,what happens is either they don't have the means or they don't have the patience or the ask to sit down and graduate that process.And then what's left.Is this feeling of like,I dunno if it's like a little inferior complex,but like,it's gonna a little bit prevent them.And that's why I think I had a cousin who studied art and Amsterdam and he said,why?Cause I wanna,I wanna have a license to be crazy.And he said that if you pee in the middle of the street,you get arrested.But if I'm an artist and I pee in the middle of the street,that's an artistic exhibition.

Speaker 3: 18:44

That's a good insight.

Speaker 4: 18:46

And so,

Speaker 3: 18:47

So I'm gonna,I'm gonna pause you there.Yeah.And connect a few of the dots.Um,cuz it's a lot of good material and I like your,your free flow honesty and just sharing your,your experience in it all.It's,it's really fun to hear the,the,the personal story there and a few things that jumped out one is that you said when you were dancing,you said,I didn't really care.I think that's an innate quality that you just had.You know,you were not self conscious joining a kind of Flocky folky group.You thought it was humorous.So I mean,I think by knowing you,I know you have a good sense of humor that it likes to,to see what is conformity and then maybe dance on the edges of that.So that's dancing on the edges of conformity already.I think that was innate to your quality,uh,probably to mine as well.Like you didn't have to work for that.So you enjoy not caring.

Speaker 4: 19:39

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:40

So that's one thing I see as a playful tool.I mean we can care or not care,but we can also just say,you know what,this has a bit embarrassing,but I don't really care.

Speaker 4: 19:50

Wait,wait,I'll tell you why.Yeah.I just wanna reflect,thank you.This is really helpful for me because two things,I think one is because I was never because I was regular,I wasn't a star.I had glasses.I was a nerd as a kid.So it's not like I was the hot guy and I had this image of myself,you know?Right.

Speaker 3: 20:07

It's like you were coming in as the underdog,

Speaker 4: 20:09

Right?

Speaker 3: 20:10

Yeah,

Speaker 4: 20:10

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:12

Which I can,uh,definitely empathize with in the,in the world of movement and dance as I come from playing basketball in the park.So I also didn't really care

Speaker 4: 20:20

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 20:22

Um,going into these workshops,I'm like,I have a guy who wants to say,who likes to play basketball.So all these people stretching in the mirror for me,just ridiculous.Anyway.So it was sort of like a,a mechanism I could use

Speaker 4: 20:32

Like a blisful ignorance.Like you're ignorant enough to not even care that this is

Speaker 3: 20:36

Exactly yeah.That these people trained,you know,from age four in this.And then I'm just like,oh,this is great,easy movement.I'm a movement.Um,and another thing I'm,I'm noticing that I can highlight through the,the story of the tension,unconscious tension that multi potential lights have,where there is a societal message.You said both my parents were specialists.There is an imprinting of specialization from our older generation where it's,Hey,pick a lane mm-hmm<affirmative>and you know,put your foot on the pedal.And then maybe you're starting a bit slow,but just accelerate until the end of the road.And at some point you're gonna cruise there.And,but don't veer from this lane and that's,that's a huge imprinting from our elders,parents society.Um,maybe not for everybody today,but I think that was our personal case where that does send a message,that it's not safe to have three lanes and constantly be shifting between them or trying to integrate three lanes,cuz it's gone from safe capacity to unsafe capacity.

Speaker 4: 21:46

Right.

Speaker 3: 21:46

And so I,I,I had a,um,a thought for this,which is,is,is called embracing the owl.So if you tell me it's came up when you were talking.So if you tell me,you know,I tell you,Hey,you know,at night I'm always awake and my head turns around and I make these noises.And I,I,I,I disclose this to you.And then you say,you know what?I think you're an owl.And suddenly I'm like,oh I,God,I'm an owl.This is great.I start celebrating my owl,this dancing at night,looking all around and it's no longer an issue and something around having that,that process of saying,Hey,I don't know if I can be the extrovert on stage,then the sort of quiet introvert as I'm listening to people,then this third hat,the process between that.And today,or last time we talked,you said,if I can share,yeah,please.Um,you said,now I'm trying to do this or my intention or my attempt is to actually have a,just one bigger hat and I'm not a different as sale on the stage and then a totally different one in the therapy room.So that means from my perspective,there is a,a,a healthy leakage now.Yes.Low between the,these areas under one bigger hat.

Speaker 4: 23:08

And I would say,I'd say it's,it's an integr.It's like an integration.And we call this a solid sense of self.Like I used to be a reflected sense of self.Like how do people see me?And I'm gonna,I'll be whatever you want to suddenly say,okay,this is me,I'm tired,but I don't think I could.There's no hack for that.Like I needed those years of flipping.

Speaker 3: 23:27

Sure.

Speaker 4: 23:28

To finally say,okay,screw this.This is the one hat or there is no hat.This is me.And,and I think there's a,there's a qu there's a quality of time as well.

Speaker 3: 23:37

Right?There's no hack,but there are definitely some sort of Encouraging principles.If you do notice that you have this non specialized quality,like the,this girl told you,Hey girlfriend,at the time you can integrate that.And I think that is a,a meaningful approach because it's almost a difference between feeling adequate and inadequate.Yeah.Like,all right,not today,but in seven,eight years,you're gonna integrate all these,all these things that,yeah.You're a little bit of an actor dancer.You're not the worst.Um,maybe you're not the best,but you're definitely bringing some original quality to that.Um,uh,from,from my memory.Yeah.And then of course you have your,your qualities as a therapist that are very unique and your qualities as an educator that are unique.

Speaker 4: 24:36

I mean,I think about it for like,if we're talking to the,if there's a potential aid that's listening to us or like a butting potential,

Speaker 3: 24:43

We're trying to,to,to pump some empowerment into

Speaker 4: 24:45

The so like I,I'm very mindful the reason I called my Institute,the potential state.And let's,I just wanna say a word about that.Cuz potential state is without wincot who's a British psychologist from like Freud home that then broke away from him,basically said when a baby's born,he's born into the fantastic world,he thinks everything's revolves around him.The good enough mother that's his term frustrates him into reality.Okay.But in between reality and fantasy,there's the potential state.Okay.When my daughter plays with her dolls,she knows their dolls,but she can also talk to them.She's one Legg in reality,one Legg in fantasy.That's where kids have imaginary friends,Santa Claus,a tooth fairy.Okay.As we grow older,we lose that potential state.We go way more and more into reality.Mm-hmm<affirmative>but in,it's in it's within the potential state that we have imagination,creativity,flow,belief,wonder,love.Okay.And I realized early on that my gift is I can create potential states.I can bring potential spaces and bring people into that.And why am I saying all this?I don't even remember.What was the question?

Speaker 3: 25:47

Well,we were talking about,I was highlighting the integration piece.I was highlighting that you had a,an ex-girlfriend that told you,Hey,

Speaker 4: 25:54

Ah,right.Oh,okay.So,right,right.

Speaker 3: 25:56

Integrate.Versus you walking around in the world,thinking I'm a bit inferior,I'm a bit inadequate.I'm not an expert

Speaker 4: 26:03

To I'm regular.I'm regular.That I'm a regular,I'm a regular guy Mo.Exactly.And I think,and I think that was really what was about,cause I was surrounded by people like my brother peaked early and he was very clear what he was good at.Okay.And I was like kind of just Moz around trying to find something interesting.And I never saw a talent in me.You know,you go to a high school,you're in your high school play,but everyone's in the high school,you know?Like,and I think for the buddying potential,I'd say this.If I had to like,ah,no,I wanna go back to potential state.So then what I realized is after I created the incident,which is basically me and now it's me and my wife,it was like,I wanted to create a home for all the multi potential lights,cuz I never had a role model.I never saw someone like me.I could never look up to someone.I was lucky enough to have people that didn't block me.Do you understand the difference?Like I had supervisors and teachers that saw me that they,they,they weren't modeling for me,but they,they were like,you,you do USA and I can look

Speaker 3: 27:03

Right.And,and a few people down the road that were saying,Hey,come teach this class or Hey,I think you're an educator or Hey yeah.Some feedbacks about what you do seem to be good at.

Speaker 4: 27:16

And it's interesting cuz if,if I go back to these shot,I've never actually thought about,he was a fighter pilot.Right.Who ended up marrying,uh,his,you know,his,his girlfriend and they,he,he he's like a dancer.Like you,like he played,he was a,and so he was also kind

Speaker 3: 27:29

And he took,and he took some of that really healthy,straight lined achievement type,thinking to making with his partner,one of the most successful dance companies,

Speaker 4: 27:42

Which is by the way named vertigo,which is a pilots thing.Right.As a pilot,you get vertigo.Right.So,right.So if I go back to him,if he was a multi potential light,he sent the elevator back down to me,he's like,I see this in you.Here's an opportunity.Right.I've never actually thought about that.So shout out to these shout,but like that's what I realized.And since I've done this,I've noticed when I do workshops and trainings,I attract to my trainings.People like me.And just the other week I was teaching improv for therapists in a,in a,in a university up north in Israel.And there was a woman there I could see for the,she was a multi potential and she was struggling to find her way.And I was like,I see you,I get it.You're gonna integrate this.Just like you said that,like,it's gonna take you a couple of years.Right.But don't give up,she has a background in singing and I was like,don't give that.You gotta keep that in.

Speaker 3: 28:30

Right.

Speaker 4: 28:30

And I think for a lot of multi potential lights,we burn out cuz we,we think we need to be special.And then we specialize and there we're not happy.They're like,why I'm a lawyer or I'm an educator or I'm a therapist.Like,why am I not happy?Why?Because there's a whole part of you that you're not bringing into life.

Speaker 3: 28:44

Right.And the integration piece also takes more time.I remember asking a friend once for some feedback.And he said to me,he really said this to me.I mean,which was true.He said,you know,you go for things,but you don't go all the way.Cuz he saw that I,I was a photographer.I studied photography.Then I felt too much in my head.I left,started doing SHSU started doing,I had good photos,loved it.I couldn't see a,a uh,15year path of,of uh,the time it was the beginning of,of dark rooms and uh,sorry,beginning of digital.And so what it would mean just being heavily,heavily immersed all day in that world.And I wanted then,oh,I'm gonna go to the body world doing shiatsu therapy.You know,my version of doing a,uh,a license for in the street was that was going to the Jerusalem academy of music and dance to,to have a license for,I would say for play more than for being in the street.But,

Speaker 4: 29:43

And once you had that,how did that ch how,how did it,and how did it impact your freedom or your sense of multi potential

Speaker 3: 29:50

Lights?It definitely helped my,uh,like as you said,how putting your head down and completing the task,it definitely propped up my self-esteem as,okay.I can play the societal game as well.It might be a bit challenging for me,but I also had people who helped me.I had a shorter program slightly,so it was more manageable for me.Um,there was a teacher in the program that recognized me.Um,she was also multi potential.I definitely saw me said,all right,we'll help you get through this.Um,and it definitely helped my ego become more healthy in the sense that I didn't feel more like an imposter.I felt all right,I got the credentials.I have one leg.Maybe that's an adult potential state.I have one leg in society.Here you go.It's on the wall.Like you have it on the wall.And then one leg in potential like dreamland.Um,but I also was joking within myself that,you know,no big offers,uh,were,were dropping onto me.Nobody was saying to me,oh,you are amazing.Come work for me.None of that happened.I,I was still in a sort of happy desert starting to figure out,okay,how can I now do my own workshops and teach this?So it was a very,um,it's a long,still is continuing to,uh,to grow and

Speaker 4: 31:18

Well,the metaphor I give for that,sorry,go.I was gonna say that the metaphor I use is,is that of a pyramid.I heard multitasks in Israeli singer and<inaudible>said the wider,the base,the higher,the,the edge of the pyramid.And I think for multi potential,we spend many years like this.And the challenge is when do we flip it and start going like this?And I also think it depends what,which,which fields you're slashing.Cuz I think the art and education field is much less MERITO.I dunno if the words MERITO,like you need less certificates to be an artist,right.Versus if you're a lawyer slash educator or if you're a physician,like it really depends which,which fields you're,you're bringing in together.And I think for both of us,I,I mean we straddle similar worlds.I think me and you,although you have shots from photography,but what I'm trying to say is like,I,I,I felt like for me out of the three worlds,the one I needed the most certificates and those are the ones on my wall are the clinical ones.Sure.Nobody,nobody gave,nobody gave a.If I was,uh,studied dancing or act,I mean maybe these professional theater companies,but like no one's ever asked me that question.But people do ask me is what's your certification as a therapist?Mm-hmm<affirmative>and it's clear to me today that this license to be a therapist basically allows me to keep doing what I wanna do.And,and it's considered therapeutic,right?Like if I was a therapist and we were doing loop station,theoretically,that could have been a therapeutic,uh,performance,you know,just like just like in the street.Right.So you're now sticking magnets on the wall.That's an art piece.So I mean,I,I guess it really depends.And,and this is what I wanted to say is like I'm realizing more and more and like,I'm gonna talk about the specific true that I live in therapy,art and education.I truly believe that therapy,art education are the same.Okay.They all talk about change.They all talk about growth.And if we rewind,this is Brad Keeney who talks about this,the shaman,the prophet,they used to be all three.The shaman was an educator,a healer,a performer.It was all a like all these professions were once one and we kind of separate them.And we've kind of created these,these,these specific we've over specialized today.You're a doctor.You're,you're a mouth and ear,doctor,your mouth and ear doctor for chip,for children.It's like,you're a neuro there's no holistic view anymore.So it's,

Speaker 3: 33:32

It's almost the shaman split into these fragments then remembered through individuals of saying,Hey,this art therapy education is actually makes sense to me.And it's,it's,it's an awesome insight.I love that you brought it up cuz it's an awesome insight as to it's actually quite natural to feel that it's one thing,

Speaker 4: 33:54

Especially

Speaker 3: 33:55

Using to,to think of it as totally three specialized categories.

Speaker 4: 33:59

But think about more of that.He said,Brad Kinney says,and this is,this is not my original idea.He writes,he says like today,every floods who does an undergrad in social work is a therapist and wants to become a therapist or an artist.You have to go through something,you have to experience something,you have to work.You are the vehicle.And I feel like this overs,specialization and turning everything into a certificate basically means that anyone can do anything,which on one hand is a beautiful idea.But I do believe that if you're gonna walk people through a journey,you have to walk it yourself.And I think,and,and,and,and I think for me again,I guess unconsciously,I was,I was downloading my parents's,my dad's art,my mom's,you know,therapy.My dad was worked for the,he was a Jewish,civil servant.I'm sure Jewish.Like,I,I I'm,I got it.It got downloaded,but they never integrated it.And I think another interesting question for the multi potential light is when is it like I'm I have a day job and a hobby.And when is it I'm a multi potential light.Like mm-hmm<affirmative>is it because I'm getting money from my art?Or is it because in my mind,my libido is split50,50or30,30,30.

Speaker 3: 35:05

Okay.So let's unpack that30,30,30versus

Speaker 4: 35:15

Is it,how do you measure that you're multi potential light.The fact that you enjoy a lot of things could be hobbies.You could be a lawyer who loves writing poetry and doing slam poetry.Does that mean you're multi potential light?Does it matter?I dunno,that's a different question,but I think,I think for me the measure would be like this.I would be doing art again.Here's my blind spot because I've always been financially stable.Not because of my parent,like I've I was born into middle class.I am middle class.Okay.So I have to say that's my blind spot.So I could always afford to do,to teach,you know,improv and dance school for like no money,you know,for minimum wage.I didn't care about the money.I think that if I was stressed for money,I would've never become a multi potential.

Speaker 3: 36:02

Right.

Speaker 4: 36:03

Because I wouldn't,I wouldn't have the,yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:05

The idea of the lawyer going to slam poetry.The question does it matter is also good.I mean,of course.Does he turn slam poetry into an earning profession if he's already set from his,uh,lawyer?Yeah.Does he,does he need to have income?You know,that sometimes just feeds the ego.Um,it's definitely good to actualize our talents into streams of income,but of course that that might not be the marker.

Speaker 4: 36:31

Right?

Speaker 3: 36:32

The passion I think is,is

Speaker 4: 36:33

Exactly the passion

Speaker 3: 36:35

Fulfill

Speaker 4: 36:35

It's fulfillment.It's the fulfillment

Speaker 3: 36:37

Is in there somewhere,

Speaker 4: 36:38

Right?Am I,am I bringing all my sides?We call this self states and psychotherapy.Am I bringing all my self states to life is ACL of the child,the lover,the,the angry,the,you know,the adult am.I can,how many dimensions am myself?Am I bringing on the day to day?And I have to share since COVID,for instance,I've been performing and teaching,like the art has dropped in my life and therapy has gone way up.Okay.So workshops.So out of the three for the past year and a half,and I can feel its toll on my body on my sense of play on my silliness.I'm off balance for me.I'm not used to doing so many hours of clinical work.

Speaker 3: 37:19

Right.

Speaker 4: 37:20

And,and I'm realizing this is connected to my physical and mental health.This is not just,you know,I have to draw.This is like,if I don't do a lot of art,I get more depressed.I,I,I kind of drop into,I wouldn't say clinical depression,but I I'm definitely on the darker range on the emotional sphere.Sure.And,and,and I'm realizing,and,and it's interesting,cuz I've never said,I mean,I'll say my bio multi potential,but it's not my business card.In that sense.I'll say I'm a therapist.I start with a therapist now because I feel like I tried that for a while and people didn't get that.And I,I didn't have the energy to start educating them.I didn't want to wasn't wasn't my calling,

Speaker 3: 38:00

But terminology is confusing anyway.I mean,I,I,I could say,Hey,I think you're a multidisciplinary artist.Does that mean a lot of things for a lot of people maybe for,if you're inside that little niche club,it might mean something to you,

Speaker 4: 38:12

But this is

Speaker 3: 38:12

Interesting.Maybe we throw it around cuz it sounds good.

Speaker 4: 38:15

But here's the thing.I know that if I'd say I'm a multi potentially artist versus I'm a therapist who also does that,people will see me differently.And it depends in which area,like if I'd come visit you in the states and in your dance,I,I would,it's interesting.But I would still present myself as a therapist who does other stuff because I feel like multi I've never,and maybe this is the remittance of my imposter syndrome.I never felt full on artist,

Speaker 3: 38:41

But isn't that also an outwardly game that we sometimes need to play for the purposes of forwarding our primary business,perhaps to say,Hey,if I,if I,uh,put this leg out,uh,not leg,maybe this,uh,

Speaker 4: 38:58

Yeah,this leg,yeah.This

Speaker 3: 38:59

Hat,this hat out first I throw this,I have three cards in my pocket.Right.And right now my main breadwinner is my therapist,but I'm gonna throw out,oh,here I'm a multidisciplinary potential state artist come to my office,perhaps for a certain person that would actually be beneficial.Right.But I'm just guessing here and,and telling me what your experience of it,that sometimes we're also playing within the constraints,but it's fine to be inwardly.And it's interesting what you said about maybe perhaps not inwardly,fully identifying as an artist and I do fully see you as one.

Speaker 4: 39:36

That's so interesting.I

Speaker 3: 39:37

Wanna absolutely.Because the artistry that I saw in you is definitely connected to actually merging that trio.I saw you do a,a workshop in vertigo.That was a course.And I came for the,for the last meeting and I saw a girl playing on the piano and perhaps not,everything was impressive,but the participants were so engaged.I mean,one of the,you know,they were,one of them was in tears.They have odd,they went through something because you put them on the stage and you allowed them to play with all these things.And I thought,oh,look at this guy.Like he is really in it.He is really in it.And I,I,I thought of you as a groundbreaking artist in just going for that,the art of creating that state.Cause to me,an educator is a bit stuffy,right.As a definition.So yeah,you're an educator,but you have an edge level that I saw in you that I probably saw in myself too,that not many people have,which is a desire to walk on the edge of what is correct possible.Okay.You know,what,how does a therapist behave?How does a dancer behave?And you don't,from my perception of you,don't like to be in the lines or in the boxes of that.And even our performance of loops,loop trio,uh,loop station trio,three men.It was three men who were all walking on.One is a partial ballet,partial musician,par everyone had a few different hats there in terms of mixing it up,music,playback theater.

Speaker 4: 41:23

Now that you're thinking about it as you're speaking,um,that it really touched me because I think I grew up,it's not a coincidence.I did the artist away twice the artist wait,work,cuz something was about artists.And like here's,here's the core beliefs that I've inherited.So my dad never went for arts,but in our family,he was the artist artistic one.He was the singer,he was the dancer.He was the actor.And I was always like a,and in all those intersections that I've mentioned where I didn't go for it all the way I didn't go to acting school.I didn't go to dance school.So for me,I guess out of the three that's,that's the identity.I say least,although it's clear to me as a,the,like I say this to clients therapy is an art form.It's not a science therapy is art.It's not a science.Anyone who tells you it's a science for,I try to make it a science.It's not a science.

Speaker 3: 42:13

Do you ever get pushback from other therapists or do they mostly

Speaker 4: 42:17

Do,do I ever not get pushback?

Speaker 3: 42:18

Okay.

Speaker 4: 42:19

Yeah.And I,and I also lose a lot of clients because I,I don't,I don't prescribe to a certain science.I think it's an art.And the think,what you said is really interesting.I say,if you're definition of art,cuz I'm still stuck in art is dance theater drawing.And you're saying art is creating is inter is like,it's opening your mind.It's seeing the world in a different way.Right.It's seeing

Speaker 3: 42:40

Reality.I,I see it in the closer to,to your description of the,the shaman state,the ability to shift yourself and other people into states that they had previously not known as well as opened their minds to modes of thinking that they did not know existed within themselves.So a piece of art could inspire that you,you,you know,sometimes I,I even like to see it in urban environments where there's a cynical idea of the,the landscape sometimes because the,the city might pay here,the artists put up a few statues in our cities,but sometimes it gets me,you know,where I see something and I,you know,like in Jerusalem there was the,uh,staircase that was upside down,right.Somewhere in one of these neighborhoods

Speaker 4: 43:30

There.Yeah,yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:31

As a kid,I,you know,I still remember that,oh,upside downstairs.You know,I still remember that art can inspire that.Just something different.

Speaker 4: 43:41

So anything that opens your mind and challenges,a perception of re that brings you into potential state takes you a little bit out of reality.

Speaker 3: 43:48

I think that's the artistry and it could be wow.A drawing,a painting,a movie,or the actor,the painter,the director,or the,the guide therapist,the improvisational teacher wearing that hat.For sure.

Speaker 4: 44:11

I feel like for me,that's the hardest identity to like apple poll imposter syndrome.Like that would be the hardest to say I'm an art,like look at you and say hi,even

Speaker 3: 44:21

Though,even though it's amazing,cuz you're on,you've been on stage so many times.

Speaker 4: 44:24

I know,I know.Right.

Speaker 3: 44:25

As a,as what I mean,I don't know the playback world that,well I doctor

Speaker 4: 44:33

We call it a conductor.

Speaker 3: 44:35

Right,right.But you're,but you're also doing these little skits that you're acting inside.

Speaker 4: 44:39

Right.So I'm an actor.I,I performed as an actor,a dancer,a musician.I had a band I sang.But like if you ask me,I say,are you an artist?I'd be like,uh,maybe yes,I want to.

Speaker 3: 44:50

Right.Which awesome.Thank you for,for your,for your transparency,man.This is,is really interesting because it also brings me to,I,I do want to take another five minutes to,to,to start wrapping it up.But what I'm seeing as also summing up these different arenas of imposter syndrome,being the expert specializing,and what you just shared is that specialization,I would put it on,on one extreme of the bank where it's represented by the outer markers of the diploma on the wall.Sometimes we need that diploma on the wall to give us permission.Yes.To have the internal

Speaker 4: 45:42

Hupa

Speaker 3: 45:43

Hupa where some shackle breaks and we say,yes,I'm a artist.I'm a therapist.

Speaker 4: 45:53

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 45:53

Yeah.And that outer marker gives the inner permission.

Speaker 4: 45:57

It sucks.Like it sounds like,but it's true.It is true.Need that document.True.

Speaker 3: 46:02

Yeah.It's solely true.And this is,this is a beautiful insight because then we can think,all right,it's pointing to the inner permission and I'm sure there are other ways.Specialization is one,I mean via academia or the courses that need to be taken to complete the,the,the title and the other one I think is,is what we're bringing to light.Also like put,bring out to light the,the,a bit of that shame and inadequacy add inadequacy.We feel when,and from your story and your personal family story,when you don't have,you don't,you don't have enough time to have two diplomas right now.Like you,you would have to take another four years or maybe two years to complete the acting school.Let's say the most.If I,I told you,Hey,I said,I'm giving you a scholarship.Here's uh,a million bucks.So you're taken care of,I just want you to go to the most prestigious course of acting or school and complete,you know,and then what what's,what would happen,you know,after that completion perhaps is,yeah,I'm a artist too,you know?Right.Maybe,or maybe not.I don't know.But it,yeah,I appreciate you just bringing up that tension because that's exactly what,what I,uh,uh,I would say in some ways,feel with,with,with that struggle with the inner and outer play and this talk,which I,before we started,I said,Hey,let's call this principles of play was to try to figure out with you some tips to unburden that,to have a more full embracing of the owl.Uh,how do we give ourselves more permission is the question.

Speaker 4: 47:52

So,so if I had to,if I'm broadcasting live,now I'm thinking,okay,what tips would I give a budding multiple times?Like if you're hearing this talk and there's,

Speaker 3: 47:59

What would you give yourself to empower your inner artist right now also?Well,

Speaker 4: 48:03

First of all this talk,

Speaker 3: 48:04

I put you on the spotlight.<laugh>

Speaker 4: 48:06

No,I,I think,I think the way you see me and,you know,on one hand flattering,it's also a little bit embarrassing.Do I believe you?Is he stop saying this?Because he is sweet to me,but like<laugh>,it's really,it's really,I'm very hard on myself.I think,I think I'm reaching an age now at43,I'm reaching an age now we're going,

Speaker 3: 48:24

I will highlight that.That,that's a beautiful thing to say that you're hard on yourself.

Speaker 4: 48:28

Yeah.I think on one hand,my insecurities delete says this,my wife says to me like,it's beautiful.It keeps you humble,but it's reaching a stage now in my life where it's not serving me anymore,

Speaker 3: 48:40

To be hard on yourself.

Speaker 4: 48:41

Yeah.Like this mentality I grew up with my mom's voice is do another supervision.Take another course slowly,slowly,her,this is her like her,her,my internalized mother.She's like,take your time,take your time.She,

Speaker 3: 48:53

And she was a,a professional licensed therapist.Uh,

Speaker 4: 48:57

I mean the truth is she also switched professions.She wasn't a multi potential,but it took her a while to find her calling.But that was her voice.And I know that every big intersection,except for the acting school,I knew that if I had asked my parents,they would first put the breaks on.So this is what I wanna say to the budding multi potential light.And then I will also add to myself.I think the first thing is,if you notice that you love a lot of different things,you don't have to choose.I mean,the world is forcing you to choose and you might have to choose one gate to open one certificate on the wall,just so you have something cuz in today's world,except for the art world,I feel it's really hard to move without anything on the wall.That's my,it's been my experience,at least in Israel.Like you need something people need to know.

Speaker 3: 49:38

Right.And it helps,it helps the exterior marker for the enterprise.It definitely helps.And it helps outside too.

Speaker 4: 49:45

And I think we both have a mutual friend who never actually finished anything and,and he's crazy talented.We both know him and I feel like he had,he's never really committed to any one of them.He's so lateral that the pyramid never peaked.Right.And I,and I think that's also tragedy cuz at the end of the day,you also want to kind of integrate and,and bring and also see the fruition and,and,and make a living out of your passion.Cuz that is freedom.You know,if you,if you work,if you do what you love,you'll never work a day in your life.And so I just wanna say this.So one notice that too,find people that are similar to you,there are multi potential lights out there.You need to seek them and find them,they'll see them at the edge.The mismatchers they're wearing the funky tie.They're the ones that are sitting at the back of the room.They're the ones that are a bit blunt,a bit rude.They're the ones that people don't like.Find those people sit at their feet in the sense of have them.They need to create a potential state for you so you can explore an experiment and feel.And I think,I think at the end of the day,it's really about a little bit of Hupa little bit of go for it.Will that give me,am I curious about that?Can I create that

Speaker 3: 50:53

Hotz spot by the way,for those who don't know it's

Speaker 4: 50:55

Staring yeah.Audacity like

Speaker 3: 50:58

Audacity.

Speaker 4: 50:59

Yeah.I'm gonna go,I'm gonna offer myself to dance school even though I never studied active.And I'm also curious,I'm thinking about,was that something now?Now did I live in FSA,which is like a suburb city?Would I have been able to do that?If I wasn't living in Jerusalem?Which is a kind of a cosmopolitan where the distances are,are very close.I think it's also positioning.I mean,you know,in outliers,you know,Adam Grant says nobody's really a genius.Like the Beatles had10,000hours,bill gates,his mom had a computer way before everyone.Like,you also need to position yourself in an area where you,where you can touch these different people.And I think for me,I was blessed that I,I,I,I was rubbing against artists during the day educators of the day.Like I was rubbing up against a lot of different people.So I was,I was,um,rich,right?

Speaker 3: 51:50

So I'll say seek out the people.Yeah.That can,that can role model that for you,that can help you.That are,that have that spark of a big hat within it,doing a few things.

Speaker 4: 52:06

And even if you don't have those force yourself to go to different areas where you'll be rubbing up against those specialists,

Speaker 3: 52:13

I love that.Cuz that would mean,especially if we have that bubbling inadequacy,shame,even a tiny bit would be very uncomfortable to,to,to go and reach out or,or step out of the comfort zone to go take a course in that thing that we love,but are afraid to take.

Speaker 4: 52:33

Yeah,because at the end of the day,if I'm always,if I'm only hanging out around lawyers and I dream about doing slam poetry,I'm gonna start going to every single snap poetry I can meet them,get challenged,get inspired.And I wanna say one last thing,I call this to melt.Like I have melted,I melt on a daily basis next to specialists,which is the,it has a negative side,but the good side is that I've always

Speaker 3: 52:54

Been melting,

Speaker 4: 52:54

Melting when I'm kind of losing confidence.I'm like,oh my God,he's an amazing actress.I

Speaker 3: 52:59

Oh like bubbling,gushing,melting,

Speaker 4: 53:01

No melting.Like,uh,I'm melting.I'm melting.I'm losing confidence.I'm losing

Speaker 3: 53:07

Con because they are because they're

Speaker 4: 53:09

So,because they're so amazing.Cuz I'm I'm when you hang with specialists,you,you will melt.But take that melting is inspiration and not just as you're not good enough.

Speaker 3: 53:18

Beautiful,beautiful.And the,and the,the permission slip for yourself.That's our last,uh,posted here for the day.

Speaker 4: 53:25

I want to remind myself that my artistry is not measured by the performance aspect of it.But it's the,I mean,when you said challenging people creating a potential state is art.I know how to take people,

Speaker 3: 53:39

Not measured by,

Speaker 4: 53:43

Uh,it's not measured by a performance or a stage.It is I'm,I'm kind of rephrasing what you're saying.It's creating a space for people.You're creating a potential state that is art.And if that is art,then I am an artist and I am an artist that creates potential states.

Speaker 3: 53:59

Hey men,there you go.Send you this in the mail.

Speaker 4: 54:05

Wow.Yeah,that was a hard one to birth.Yeah.I need to repeat it like times million.

Speaker 3: 54:10

We did it.Yeah.All right.Well this was an awesome talk.

Speaker 4: 54:14

Thank you so much for this opportunity.

Speaker 3: 54:17

I,I love that we meander through some gardens and got to a nice,bigger one.

Speaker 4: 54:24

Thank you for pushing me and fi and helping me find something that's new for me as well.

Speaker 3: 54:28

Hey,my pleasure.You've you've done it for me before.And

Speaker 4: 54:31

I also,I wanna say one last thing,like no one's ever wanted to talk to me specifically about the multi potential light dimension of my life.Can I just finish with a quote with your permission?This comes from a book called absolutely one person multiple career,the original guide to the slash career by Marcy Alhart last page.She says still in the end,I believe we are all slashers by necessity.After all who can answer the question,what do you do with a single response?And why would we want to?So I think multi potential lights it's out of necessity.It's not a choice.You just find yourself that you want that.

Speaker 3: 55:14

Yes.Embrace it.Embrace your owl,

Speaker 4: 55:18

Embrace the owl,go find other multi potential lights.One of them is Tahi.The other one is me.

Speaker 3: 55:24

Yes.So,so speaking of finding them,uh,Doug will use Dr.Dr.Elli,Dr.Elli,the potential state it's the potential state.com.Is that

Speaker 4: 55:35

Just pot potential state.com.It has everything there.Yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:38

And also a really interesting YouTube channel.

Speaker 4: 55:42

Oh yes.I gotta say a word about that,but

Speaker 3: 55:43

I've been,yes.I've been getting some good tips from that.

Speaker 4: 55:47

So,um,after I handed in my PhD,I hit40.I had my midlife crisis.Then I shifted into,into actually generating content.So I have a YouTube channel with over120videos.We have a podcast with the same content and there's a blog on psychology today.All this resources are free.They're in the website,potentially.com.Sign up for our newsletter.Come,come

Speaker 3: 56:07

I'm I'm already there.<laugh>

Speaker 4: 56:09

And I also wanted a shout out to your tell.She has a YouTube channel now subscribe,like follow.

Speaker 3: 56:16

Sure.Thank you.Thank you.I'm just learning.I'm just learning how to get people to,to get interested.So

Speaker 4: 56:21

Thank you that my pleasure.

Speaker 3: 56:23

All right.All right.People

Speaker 1: 56:26

We're gonna stop now.So that was my talk with Todd.She I'll leave all his info in the details below,so you can check it out and follow him as well.I hope this was meaningful for you as much as it was for me.And we I'll see you next time.

Speaker 2: 56:44

You've been listening to the potential state podcast For more information,visit us@potentialstate.com.Thanks for listening.